Преводачески проблеми

Scourge · Post by **Scourge** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:24 pm

Corwin wrote: Да не говорим, че автора явно е ебаси арогантния и повярвал си ***. Как да не си на противоположното мнение.

авторът бая книги в тая област е превел. и добре е запознат с нюансите на polygon и design.

Roamer · Post by **Roamer** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:29 pm

Всъщност авторът наистина е един от по-известните ни лингвисти, особено в компютърната област, и на него дължим освен всичко друго не един и два речника, та повечето от нещата, които ги казва, си заслужават поне малко замисляне дали пък няма нещо сериозно предвид. Иначе това с преводите на термините и навлизането на чуждици под път и над път ще си бъде твърде спорна тема с твърде поляризирани мнения още поне пет-десет години, да не кажа и завинаги, та Мор си е най-прав с призива в края на предишната страница към това да приемем тази част от статията просто като нещо любопитно, а да не си разваляме предновогодишното настроение с на практика безсмислени спорове - точно за такива спорове форумното общуване е една от най-НЕподходящите среди. И така

passer-by · Post by **passer-by** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:46 pm

Moridin wrote:Нещо доста интересно поне според мен

http://m-balabanov.hit.bg/ComErrTrans/ar01s01.html

Определено е много интересно и съвсем смислено от строго езикова гледна точка.

За жалост обаче е доста закъсняло. Специално в компютърната област английските термини са се наложили и както споменаха някои от уважаемите ни програмисти, посмъртно няма да се сменят с други. Вече.

Иначе в БТА си пишем "Силициевата долина" открай време. Ама при нас има бая високи изисквания за нивото на българския. Работя там от близо пет години, а още се случва някой редактор да ме коригира за някоя тънкост на езика роден наш.

Corwin · Post by **Corwin** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:50 pm

Scourge wrote:
Corwin wrote: Да не говорим, че автора явно е ебаси арогантния и повярвал си ***. Как да не си на противоположното мнение.
авторът бая книги в тая област е превел. и добре е запознат с нюансите на polygon и design.

Възможно е. Възможно е да е прав и за значението на думите. Това е от тези спорове, по които може да се изпишат тридесет страници и никой да не промени и милиметър мнението си.
Лично моето е, че както казах езика еволюира и това е малко излишен шовинизъм - ако се изчистим от турските, английските, евентуално гръцките заемки в него, според мен той би станал доста по-беден и неизразителен.
Това няма значение в случая - може да съм прав, може и да не съм, най-вероятно донякъде - не би променило нищо, а и I don't care - думите са се наложили вече.

Идеята ми е, че когато някой започне да използва долуспоменатите изречения, определено си е повярвал твърде много и смята себе си за ултуимативното и неоспоримо мнение по въпроса, което никога не е истина и само дразни.

Spoiler: show: "За съжаление обаче непрофесионалните преводачи често злоупотребяват и с едното, и с другото (или със смес между двете), вместо да погледнат в речника, за да намерят съответна съществуваща българска дума."
"а отгоре на всичко ви мързи да помислите (което е обезпокоителен симптом самò по себе си"

Едит: Бая офтопик влязохме, май по-добре стига толкова.

passer-by · Post by **passer-by** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:55 pm

Тишо, аз като преводач се подписвам с две ръце под двете изречения, които си сложил в спойлъра. Може и да те дразнят, но са си горчива истина.

Освен това като говориш за влиянието на чужди езици в българския леко смесваш "заемка" и "чуждица".

Заемката от друг език е полезна, защото обозначава нещо, което по някаква причина не съществува в езика-приемник (в случая българския).

Чуждицата обаче е дублетна форма на вече съществуващ в езика-приемник термин (дума, израз) и поради това играе паразитна роля, която не обогатява езика, а го обеднява.

Елементарен пример - "мерси" вместо "благодаря" (благо дарявам). Първата дума има смисъл на френски

, но не и на български. Втората съдържа в себе си смисъл, който е понятен за българоезичните.

Тук ставаше дума за излишното дублиране на вече съществуващи в българския думи и изрази - т.е. за чуждици, не за заемки.

Иначе си прав - ако българският загуби заемките си от други езици, със сигурност ще обеднее. Тук обаче не става дума за заемки. Авторът според мен дава добри предложения в линка на Жоро. Само дето са закъснели.

Post by **Roland** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:42 am

Ах, все пак има хора, които се чувстват като мен...

This book is as slow as a tortoise with arthritis, and at the end of the painful slow-march you realize you haven't moved much from where you stopped in Eldest. It is painfully obvious that Paolini was made to (?) prolong this series. The actual plot can be told in about 100 pages; the rest is either horribly drawn out descriptions or meaningless and repetitive conversations.

Some scenes go like this (not the actual words, but you will get the drift)

Eragon: Saphira, isn't it wrong to kill people?
Saphira: No young one, sometimes you have to do what you do for the greater good.

Now, this is blown into a page-long dialogue where they repeat the same question and answer in passive voice, reported speech etc. I felt like stuffing Eragon into Saphira's mouth to shut them both up. When one thinks they have finally reached a consensus and the plot will move on, they move to another track:

Eragon: Saphira, I love you
Saphira: I love you too, young one.
Eragon: I can't bear to be separated from you Saphira, not even for a moment
Saphira: I can't either...
Eragon: Saphira.....
Saphira: young one....

I felt like shouting "Get a room!!!" before I remembered they were a dragon and rider, not star-crossed teenage lovers. Then, finally the coddling was over and I started hoping again that something would happen.

Enter Arya...

Eragon: Arya, baby, how do you feel while killing someone?

I fervently wished she would show him instead of telling him

herairness · Post by **herairness** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:50 am

И аз като преводач се съгласявам със спойлера на Коруин. Обаче има тенденция, която понякога ме води до тих бяс (може и не толкова тих) и скърцане със зъби, понеже аз съм избрала българския еквивалент, а клиентът връща материала, като го заменя с англицизма, щото видите ли така звучало по авторитетно

Post by **Roland** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:13 am

Essentially, in 748 pages, Eragon did 4 things, and yet Paolini somehow couldn't fit the end of the trilogy in one book. Thus, there will be a 4th book to finish the trilogy (now called a cycle). My biggest qualm with this series not ending in 3 books, is that this book was verbose with very little action.

Eragon's 4 actions:
1) Killed the Razac- this took about 60 pages
2) Visit Tronjiheim to hurry the dwarves in picking their king
3) Went to Ellesmera (for a 2 day conversation)
4) Flew to Feinster for a battle

Actions 3 and 4 occurred in the last 150 pages, and because Eragon agreed to support Orik, he spent most of action 2 wandering around the tunnels, gettng attacked once, and moaning about missing Saphira. The rest of the text usually involved a lot of transit...Eragon running (whoohoo), Eragon and Saphira flying against strong headwinds, and flying in good weather. Perhaps Paolini thinks this transit time is important and interesting due to the long travel sequences in "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy, but first, that was a series about a journey...therefore travel is necessary, this series is about war more than anything else, and second, Tolkien was a much much more gifted writer than Paolini.

Also, Paolini stated in is excuse for not finishing the series in 3 books, that this gave him an opportunity to explore the characters. However, Eragon's incessant moaning over the ethics of killing and the difference in his morals from those of elves, isn't what I would call an interesting expose into the minds of Eragon and the other characters. In fact, it only leads the reader to realize that Eragon is indeed a whiny child, given far too much authority because a dragon hatched to him...but that more than anything, the author expects us to believe Eragon to be an upstanding ethical person who we should all exalt as the best person to lead because he fears it.

I have always found Paolini's writing pretentious, but it seems to have only gotten worse with his success. The only reason for the success of his series is the more than fortunate timing of the "Lord of the Rings" films and "Harry Potter" series generating a boom in interest in fantasy...however this series cannot compare to either of those. Tolkien and "Harry Potter" fans will find The Inheritance Cycle superficial, unimaginitive, poorly written, and lacking in action.

The similarities, such as 3 young unknowing people thrown into the wars of previous generations, are not enough to make the Inheritance Cycle a satisfying read...which is only more frustrating because it doesn't end when it is supposed to- and unlike the other LOTR and HP series'- you very much want this one to end.

Post by **Roland** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:33 am

Ех каква хубава терапия било това

Somebody needs to tell Christopher Paolini that no matter how many elves and dwarves you include, moral debates and politics do not an epic fantasy make.

Unfortunately that's only one of the problems with Paolini's third long-winded, short-plotted fantasy novel about the adventures of the More-Special-Than-Thou hero Eragon. "Brisingr" reads less like a coherent novel than like a string of unevenly-written side plots -- and the last one improves somewhat, it cannot save the third Inheritance Cycle book from being as lifeless as the dead trees it's printed on.

After a gratuitously gory cult scene, Roran and Eragon make the journey to a mountain citadel to rescue Katrina. But after sending his cousin and future in-law off, Eragon finds himself facing a moral dilemma -- he's found Katrina's treacherous father, and isn't sure how to punish him. Be assured that whatever choice he makes is the right one, because he's a Dragon Rider and therefore Utterly Awesome. Meanwhile, the Varden are threatened when a chief of Nasuada's native people challenge her to a bloody duel, and she has no choice but to accept.

Oh yeah, and Murtagh and his newborn dragon arrive with a bunch of nerveless warriors for a surgical strike on the Varden citadel. But even after that, there are many other problems -- a forthcoming wedding, Roran's assignments on dangerous missions, and the upcoming nomination of a new dwarf king. And when Eragon finally returns to Ellesmera, he learns new facts about his own past, and is given a possible key to his future...

Originally the finale of the series, "Brisingr" commits a lot of literary sins, but the worst is the main plot -- it doesn't have one. Instead it has a string of side plots loosely knotted together, with no central storyline to hold them in place. A battle with Murtagh, sentencing Sloan, the Trial of the Long Knives, creepy psycho-kid Elva, the sexy furry elf, the dwarf politicking -- all of these are strung on one after the other, with little to connect them.

Simply put, "Brisingr" is boring. The entire book sags painfully under pretentious moral pondering and endless political bickering, to the point where characters will even stop during a battle to chitchat with Eragon for what seems like hours. Even Paolini seems to be aware that it's pretty bloody dull, because then he'll throw in a brief battle. But despite those battles, the biggest source of tension is everybody worrying that Eragon might get hurt, because they Just Can't Win The War without his awesomeness.

The plot does take a slight upturn when Eragon returns to Ellesmera, and has to deal with a couple climactic plot twists straight out of "Star Wars." But it's not nearly enough to salvage the book. And the worst part of all is that Paolini tries to be funny -- while there are a few cute moments such as Saphira sneezing fire, most of his humor is staggeringly unfunny. Examples: Nasuada's much-lauded and nonexistent wit, and Angela's talk about Monty Python bunnies. I wish I were making that up.

And in his efforts to out-Tolkien Tolkien, Paolini's purple prose has become almost a parody of itself -- he's so intent on details that Eragon stops during a heated battle to note the color of a Lethrblaka's blood and compare it to copper verdigris. His choppy, awkward dialogue doesn't sound like anything a person would actually say or think, especially not a teenage boy ("Even we, who were boys but a short while ago, cannot escape the inexorable progress of time. So the generations pass...").

And while Alagaesia apparently revolves around Eragon, Paolini does his self-insert no favors. There are feeble attempts at character development by making Eragon whine and angst about killing people, but it doesn't stop him from coldly killing anybody he fights, including a young man begging for mercy. And the open worship of him becomes downright nauseating: children frolic before Eragon, leaders don't dare to punish him, and injured soldiers announce "We fought for you, Shadeslayer!"

The other characters basically are there to infodump Eragon every few pages, on everything from sharpening swords to dragons' internal organs. The only halfway interesting characters are the angry Murtagh and his dragon, and Oromis for what few scenes he has. Everyone else is either a 2-D bad guy who hates Eragon, or a 2-D good guy who just loves him.

"Brisingr" may be the "ancient language's" word for fire, but Christopher Paolini's third novel doesn't really have any. Awkward, plodding and lacking a real plot, this flame was out before it even started.

I have been reading fantasy and science fiction for the better part of fifty years, and I have seldom not wanted to finish a book. this is one of those times. I started this series in the hopes of finding something new and different, but it wasn't too long before it was clear that the races, places, and plots were borrowed from truly notable fantasy titles, and only given a very thin veneer of originality.

I was really done with this series before the end of the second book and never intended to buy the thirdr. as luck would have it, a well meaning friend gave me this third book as a present, and I felt slightly obligated to at least open it. i should not have bothered. its either insane violence where religious fanatics are cutting off pieces of themselves, a long litany of roran's hammer blows to various body parts, or page after page after page or Eragon's navel gazing.

when this book isn't disturbingly violent, its depressingly dull as we spend close to a century learning how the dwarves choose a new leader. the author must have watched the newer star wars movies too often; eragon is the masterful rider one moment and a whining teenager who hasn't learned even the simplest lesson the next.

random characters are inserted in equally random places, unnecessary subplots clutter the landscape, and the dialogue is about as clear and interesting as urgal grunts. when i realized after the 300 pages covering the trip to the dwarves that this was NOT going to be the last book in the series as we were led to believe, i closed it for the last time about 150 pages from the end. it now resides in a box for donations to the local library.

its obvious that paolini's true talent is in sales and marketing- it took a true genius at both to get this published.

beliefcontrol · Post by **beliefcontrol** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:03 pm

Еха, супер - благодарение на тия цитати разбрах как се развива историята...

Аз спрях още в началото на втората книга, след като се усетих, че за поне 10-ти път зачитам една и съща страница, и спирам преди да съм я минал. А не е като да съм претенциозен фен, изчел стотици фентъзита - всичко наред чета, ама това малко ми се опря.

Morwen · Post by **Morwen** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:28 pm

А откъде са цитатите?

Roamer · Post by **Roamer** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:44 pm

Изглежда като да са от ревюта в Amazon, поне това и това.

cordelia · Post by **cordelia** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:30 pm

Roland, искрено ти съчувствам. На мен ми подариха първата преди години и се изтормозих да я прочета само от уважение към приятелката, която ми я подари. Спрях до там. Става да я чете осемгодишно хлапе, ама се съмнявам, че дори то ще й обърне внимание. Отново, искрено съчувствам. Както и на всеки по света, на който му се налага да превежда мъчително ужасни книги.

RAT400 · Post by **RAT400** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:40 pm

Аз първата и втората ги четох на 13 и си бяха върха на литературата... а в момента не искам да ги отварям, нито да си взимам третата, щото може би ще съм си променил мнението...

Post by **Roland** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:09 pm

Абе предвид нещата, дето ги четеш в момента, силно подозирам, че ще е точно такъв случаят

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